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Dazombie
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Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: Lavalcula, Québecula, Canadania

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hossrex wrote:
I stopped reading at the start, when you said it was a "Lockout", and not a "strike".

Those are two fundamentally different things, and baseball 1994 was a strike.


Whether it was a strike or a lockout (there was a persistent rumor at the time that the owners had declared a lockout before the players went on strike) doesn't change the following chain of events.

The fact remain that the big owners gave in to the players demands and backed down from the salary cap concept, which in turn left the Expos with no choice but to trade players who's salaries were becoming too expensive.

Ignoring a whole argument because of one simple mistake is kinda lame if you ask me...
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz Hoo wrote:
Then, the lock-out came (yes, it was a lock-out started by the owners, not by the players).


When you state something as a dyed in the wool fact... and that fact is just absurdly wrong, I don't think I can be blamed for calling into question your other facts, without even reading them.

It was not a lock-out. There were never rumblings of a lock-out. You're talking to the wrong person to say things like that about baseball.

Basketball was a lockout, and I think Hockey might have been as well (but I don't care about Hockey, so I may be wrong).

Baseball was a Strike, and the fervency with which you stated that incorrect "fact" clearly calls into question any other "facts" you may have had.

That you still wouldn't back down from that claim does nothing to support your position.

Quote:
The fact remain that the big owners gave in to the players demands and backed down from the salary cap concept, which in turn left the Expos with no choice but to trade players who's salaries were becoming too expensive.


It was impossible for the Expos to invest the money required to become a good team? Wouldn't you think that were that the case, Montreal doesn't deserve a team?
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Dazombie
ZOMGpire!


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: Lavalcula, Québecula, Canadania

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hossrex wrote:
It was impossible for the Expos to invest the money required to become a good team? Wouldn't you think that were that the case, Montreal doesn't deserve a team?


So, are you saying that only the Red Sox, the Yankees, the Mets and a couple of other high payrole teams truly deserve to be in Major League Baseball? Only cities with more than 5 million of population and with eccentric billionnaires deserve to have a professional baseball team?

To me, that's the kind of thinking that led to A-Rod's multi-year ridiculously high paid contract that only a couple of MLB teams can now afford.

Anyway, believe what you may want about what caused the end of the Expos, I really don't care about pro-baseball anymore. I'm just so glad that NHL owners had the balls to stand up the the players so that pro-hockey doesn't become sick has pro-baseball is...
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last seven Baseball champions:

2000: New York Yankees
2001: Arizona Diamondbacks
2002: Anaheim Angels
2003: Florida Marlins
2004: Boston Redsox
2005: Chicago Whitesox
2006: St. Louis Cardinals

If you really think theres an argument to be made that money buys world championships, why are the Yankees, and Redsox only on that list once each?

Its hard to call Arizona, Anaheim, Florida, Chicago, or St. Louis "big market" teams.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Anyone who doesn't know a single thing about the game can say "BLAH BLAH BLAH! THE YANKEES ALWAYS WIN! ITS UNFAIR! WHY DO THE REDSOX HAVE SUCH A HIGH PAYROLL! THE METS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE! THE DODGERS SHOULDN"T JUST GO BUY TALENT!".

And then you look at the teams that are winning.

At least... *I* looked at the teams that are winning. I have no clue what you're looking at.
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DaZombie2007
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that the Yankees and Red Sox as well as the few high payroll teams will prevent salary caps because these teams draw so much fan base, and by having money they may not get World Seris success , but it still earns them winning seasons. The problem is that small teams like the Royals, Reds, Indians, and many others can't be consistant at having success, for lets not forget the horrible season the Arizona Diamondbacks
had a few seasons ago. What it all comes down to is ratings many people like supporting a winning team, and this causes well known teams to be supported and watched.
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hossrex



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaVille2006 wrote:
The reason that the Yankees and Red Sox as well as the few high payroll teams will prevent salary caps because these teams draw so much fan base, and by having money they may not get World Seris success , but it still earns them winning seasons. The problem is that small teams like the Royals, Reds, Indians, and many others can't be consistant at having success, for lets not forget the horrible season the Arizona Diamondbacks
had a few seasons ago. What it all comes down to is ratings many people like supporting a winning team, and this causes well known teams to be supported and watched.


To mention the Reds, the Indians, and the DBacks... without mentioning the Brewers, or Pittsburgh sorta shows your knowledge on the subject.

The Reds (admittedly the worst of the "good" teams you mentioned) have had a first place finish since the strike, and two other second place finishes.

Cleaveland have SIX first place finishes since the strike. Smile I wish my expensive Dodgers had six first place finishes since 95.

And of course, Arizona... the most absurd entry in your list, has three first place finishes, and a world series championship in the NINE years of the franchise.

So... how much better WOULD you have had Cleaveland, or the DBacks be, to consider them a competent team?
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Zedsier
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luis had his moments...
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DaZombie2007
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hossrex wrote:
DaVille2006 wrote:
The reason that the Yankees and Red Sox as well as the few high payroll teams will prevent salary caps because these teams draw so much fan base, and by having money they may not get World Seris success , but it still earns them winning seasons. The problem is that small teams like the Royals, Reds, Indians, and many others can't be consistant at having success, for lets not forget the horrible season the Arizona Diamondbacks
had a few seasons ago. What it all comes down to is ratings many people like supporting a winning team, and this causes well known teams to be supported and watched.


To mention the Reds, the Indians, and the DBacks... without mentioning the Brewers, or Pittsburgh sorta shows your knowledge on the subject.

The Reds (admittedly the worst of the "good" teams you mentioned) have had a first place finish since the strike, and two other second place finishes.

Cleaveland have SIX first place finishes since the strike. Smile I wish my expensive Dodgers had six first place finishes since 95.

And of course, Arizona... the most absurd entry in your list, has three first place finishes, and a world series championship in the NINE years of the franchise.

So... how much better WOULD you have had Cleaveland, or the DBacks be, to consider them a competent team?

Honestly I was too lazy to mention other teams but here is my case on the D-Backs
Year Record Win % Place Playoffs
1998 65-97 .398 5th in NL West
1999 100-62 .617 1st in NL West Lost NLDS to New York Mets, 1-3
2000 85-77 .525 3rd in NL West
2001 92-70 .568 1st in NL West Won NLDS vs St. Louis Cardinals, 3-2
Won NLCS vs Atlanta Braves, 4-1
Won World Series vs New York Yankees, 4-3.
2002 98-64 .605 1st in NL West Lost NLDS to St. Louis Cardinals, 0-3
2003 84-78 .519 3rd in NL West
2004 51-111 .315 5th in NL West
2005 77-85 .475 2nd in NL West
2006 76-86 .469 T-4th in NL West

Cleveland's

1998 89-73 (1st AL Central) Boston Red Sox W (3-1) New York Yankees L (2-4)
1999 97-65 (1st AL Central) Boston Red Sox L (2-3)
2000 90-72 (2nd AL Central)
2001 91-71 (1st AL Central) Seattle Mariners L (2-3)
2002 74-88 (3rd AL Central)
2003 68-94 (4th AL Central)
2004 80-82 (3rd AL Central)
2005 93-69 (2nd AL Central)
2006 78-84 (4th AL Central)
Now Cleveland before this had a strong team from 1995, but the problem is if a team does bad it takes a few seasons to recoupe.

Now compare these two teams to the Yankees
1998 New York Yankees 114-48 (1st/5 AL East) Texas Rangers W (3-0) Cleveland Indians W (4-2) San Diego Padres W (4-0)
1999 New York Yankees 98-64 (1st/5 AL East) Texas Rangers W (3-0) Boston Red Sox W (4-1) Atlanta Braves W (4-0)
2000 New York Yankees 87-74 (1st/5 AL East) Oakland Athletics W (3-2) Seattle Mariners W (4-2) New York Mets W (4-1)
2001 New York Yankees 95-65 (1st/5 AL East) Oakland Athletics W (3-2) Seattle Mariners W (4-1) Arizona Diamondbacks L (3-4)
2002 New York Yankees 103-58 (1st/5 AL East) Anaheim Angels L (1-3)
2003 New York Yankees 101-61 (1st/5 AL East) Minnesota Twins W (3-1) Boston Red Sox W (4-3) Florida Marlins L (2-4)
2004 New York Yankees 101-61 (1st/5 AL East) Minnesota Twins W (3-1) Boston Red Sox L (3-4)
2005 New York Yankees 95-67 (1st/5 AL East) Los Angeles Angels L (2-3)
2006 New York Yankees 97-65 (1st/5 Al East) Detroit Tigers L (1-3)

Now N.Y. might not have done well in the playoffs but look over 4 100 win seasons, and notice they led the AL East divison all 8 years!
The problem is that many rising players demands are too much for teams like the Brewers, Pirates, Rockies, Royals, and many other teams that have little success. They just can't get good squads to stay, and many times teams trade players who demand an increasing sum of money.
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ThePlasticJedi
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Joined: 08 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padawan716 wrote:
And the 49ers and Raiders suck, so I don't watch much NFL.


What about San Diego?

Razz

TPJ
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All that proves is that baseball is a chaotic sport, where anything can happen, and that regardless of how much money you throw at the game, you can't guarentee success, and no matter how little money you invest, you can't guarentee failure.

Since the Yankees havn't won a World Series in 7 years, I don't see the signifigance of them winning 100 games. Sure, its a lot of win. But who cares? They've gotten beat every year, often by a team that won less games during the regular season. We play the World Series, because thats how we determine whos the champion.

Come the last week in September, the slate is wiped clean, and if a two hundred million dollar payroll can't win in October, it might as well have had a Pittsburgh sized payroll.

http://www.onestopbaseball.com/TeamPayroll.asp

NLDS: Mets beat the Dodgers. 5th highest payroll beat 6th highest
NLDS: Cardinals beat the Padres. 11th highest beat 17th highest

ALDS: Tigers beat the Yankees. 14th highest beat THE highest payroll.
ALDS: A's beat the Twins. 21st highest beat the 19th highest.

NLCS: Cardinals beat the Mets: 11th highest beat 5th highest

ALCS: Tigers beat the A's. 14th highest beat the 21st highest.

WS: Cardinals beat the Tigers. 11th highest payroll beats the 14th highest payroll.

If money was even EQUALLY as important as making smart trades, and free agent signings, then the Cardinals probably wouldn't even have made the playoffs.

Only three teams in the top ten of payroll even made the playoffs, and two of them went out winning a combined ONE post season game this year. The other top ten payroll team went out in the very next round.

Why is this?

Look at the reason team salaries are so high (with 2006 salary in parenthesis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_paid_baseball_players

Barry Bonds (20 million dollars, 26 homeruns)
Pedro Martinez (14 million, 9 wins, 8 losses)
Jeff Bagwell (highest paid national league player, $19+ million dollars... didn't play a game)
Jason Giambi (20 million... out of a first baseman/DH, who didn't hit 40 homeruns)
Todd Helton (16 million, .302 average)
Andy Pettitte (16 million, 14 wins, but 13 losses)
Randy Johnson (15 million... and a 5.00 era... FIVE...)
Chan Ho Park (15 million, 7 wins, 7 losses, and a 4.81 era... which was at least lower then Johnsons)
Mike Hampton (14 million, didn't play a game)
Bartolo Colon (14 million, 1 win, 5 losses, 5.11 era)
Adrian Beltre (13 million, 25 homeruns, .265 average)
Kerry Wood (12 million, 1 win, 2 losses)

Now...

Ryan Howard (355 thousand dollars... league MVP)
Justin Morneau (385 thousand dollars... the OTHER league MVP)
Brandon Webb (2.5 million... Cy Young)
Johan Santana (8 million... the other Cy)

You could have, arguably, the four best players in baseball... all for the price of Kerry Wood.

You could have either league MVP for a hair over the MINIMUM.

The importance of money in baseball is the biggest lie of the sports entertainment media. The numbers are so absurd, and people love to hate the players for what they make, that ESPN, and Fox keep running stories about the money. But its all meaningless.

The final question is... would you rather win 100 games next year, or the world series?

Its nice to win a 100 games, but if you can't win it all, who cares?
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: somewhere in the Metro New York area... Currently: Contemplating stuff...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is probably going to get me called biased, but I'm definitely not in favor of a salary cap in baseball.

Yes, I'm a Yankees fan, so it comes naturally that I've grown accustomed to Steinbrenner pumping money into the payroll, and bloating it to over $200 million to not win the World Series. But can anyone sit back and say that, regardless of whether or not the baseball decisions made work out or not, the owner isn't doing whatever he can to win? Sure, that means in the Yankees case (other teams at times have been as guilty of this, but not with the same regularity) that there is some severe overspending on player contracts... but look at the revenue that the team produces.

Revenue-sharing (which sadly was instituted after the strike) has helped many teams stay afloat... and has also fattened a few owners pockets without any change or effort being shown in team decisions. The Brewers were a perfect example of that. Getting millions in revenue-sharing, and the product on the field gets progressively worse as the payroll shrinks. The non-competitive nature of that team (at the time) doesn't mean that there should be a salary cap, or that the Yankees spend too much money. It means that the owner is not investing capital back into the team, in attempts to raise both revenue and quality of product on the field.

The Red Sox currently have the highest average ticket price in baseball, with the smallest capacity stadium. Including standing room, Fenway Park can hold about 42,000. Yankee Stadium by comparison lists a sellout crowd at 58,411 (give or take a few). Other teams have larger stadiums, and others still have smaller ones. That's a lot of money being generated right there... but you've got to get people to go to games. There's a reason why when teams like the Yankees or Red Sox go on the road, attendance at those games is up. People want to watch them play. The big question is why... why would people turn out in larger numbers to support the visiting team over the loyal home team supporters? The answer that seems most plausible to me is competent ownership.

Look at the A's. For years now, it's a team that has not had the financial resources to keep it's own superstars, who price themselves out of town. Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, now Barry Zito, and there are others. Yet, this team is competitive every single year. They keep their payroll firmly around $70 to $80 million, they have a deep scouting department, and they wisely use composite reports to draft and sign young players, whom they then develop in a strong farm system. They have a loyal fan base, who understand that ownership is not going to break the bank for an individual at the detriment of the team.

Now look at the Orioles. Still a smaller market team, and divided moreso by the Washington Nationals being a geographical rival (30 miles, I think?). Poor decision making at the top by Peter Angelos, who has attempted to outspend the Yankees in the past, without having the resources to do so. He's picked up malcontents, injury-prone players, and basically leaves holes all over the place, expecting his one or two superstars to cover it all up. Then he gets a bewildered look in his eyes when they don't want to play there anymore. Their fanbase feels cheated and disillusioned since the days of Cal Ripken Jr. have passed.

We could go on and on for every team in baseball... but honestly, winning is a combination of a lot of things. Payroll isn't really relevant as an overall factor. Does it preclude certain teams from signing certain players? Absolutely. But even that doesn't mean that you can't have a winner (see Twins, Phillies, Justin Morneau, Ryan Howard, etc.). It's all about the time and thought you invest in the team - making personnel decisions, player signings, drafts, trades, scouts, managers, coaches. It takes a lot to win a World Series. Some owners just don't get it.

P.S. - Daz... a few years ago I saw a guy wearing a 1994 World Series t-shirt on the subway. The logos on the front were of the Montreal Expos and the New York Yankees. The back of the shirt said "The One That Never Was". Excellent shirt... but I, too felt cheated. Not that I could complain too much afterwards (we've had a few parades since then), but all I could think of was "Wow, this was Don Mattingly's best chance at the World Series, and it's gone." I still feel that MLB made many wrong decisions regarding the Expos, and I feel that the lack of support they are getting in Washington is partially a side-effect. Either way, I hope that expansion brings another team north of the border (whenever that might happen... no time soon). Mending fences is something Bud Selig is terrible at, so I would hope that the next commissioner would at least reach out to the community.
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Dazombie
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Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: Lavalcula, Québecula, Canadania

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logan Starfire wrote:
Either way, I hope that expansion brings another team north of the border (whenever that might happen... no time soon). Mending fences is something Bud Selig is terrible at, so I would hope that the next commissioner would at least reach out to the community.


I don't think it would be a good move by MLB to try to come back to Montreal. What happened with the Expos pretty much burned what little interest people here still had in the game.

It's sad really, because it has repercussions for the entire sport. Every year, Baseball Québec (the federation which oversees amateur baseball leagues here and for which I volunteer) gets less and less players. Now with the Expos gone, I feel that Quebec won't produce another Éric Gagné anytime soon...
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz Hoo wrote:
I feel that Quebec won't produce another Éric Gagné anytime soon...


Confused Russel Martin, coming off his rookie year with the Dodgers, went to the same highschool as Gagne, and he's gorram awesome. Smile

And for the record, as much as I think money isn't the end all to the game, I am in favor of both Salary cap, and minimum spending requirements.

Everyteam should be required to spend between 65-95 million dollars.
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Padawan716
The Comeback Kid


Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: not at the o2 arena on dec 10 :(

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThePlasticJedi wrote:
Padawan716 wrote:
And the 49ers and Raiders suck, so I don't watch much NFL.


What about San Diego?

Razz

TPJ


what about san diego? :p Wink
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spartan1172097



Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Location: Caught in a Wampa Cave on some Ice Planet..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play soccer football myself, but I'm not a huge fan of my National Soccer Team, I prefer the English National Soccer Team..
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DaZombie2007
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logan Starfire wrote:
The Red Sox currently have the highest average ticket price in baseball, with the smallest capacity stadium. Including standing room, Fenway Park can hold about 42,000. Yankee Stadium by comparison lists a sellout crowd at 58,411 (give or take a few). Other teams have larger stadiums, and others still have smaller ones. That's a lot of money being generated right there... but you've got to get people to go to games. There's a reason why when teams like the Yankees or Red Sox go on the road, attendance at those games is up. People want to watch them play. The big question is why... why would people turn out in larger numbers to support the visiting team over the loyal home team supporters? The answer that seems most plausible to me is competent ownership.


I think the numbers are up because if you are not a Yankees or a Red Sox fan, most likly you dislike them. I know many Indians fans, well Cleveland fans in general have a dislike for certian teams. In baseball it is the Yankees, I think attendance is up because fans want to see a superpower in baseball lose to their home team.

Oh and hossrex how could you forget 7. $130,624,340 - Ken Griffey, Jr.
, I am starting to see some of your point. Griffey Jr. isn't worth the money I mean a few years ago he was being paid an outragous amount, and only playing at most half of a game because of his injury.

Still the Reds did pretty good last season, although slipping in September.
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Dazombie
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Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: Lavalcula, Québecula, Canadania

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hossrex wrote:
Confused Russel Martin, coming off his rookie year with the Dodgers, went to the same highschool as Gagne, and he's gorram awesome. Smile


Russel Martin left Quebec years ago, back when we still had the Expos and baseball was still more popular here than soccer. Now, most kids are more interested in playing soccer or football (which isn't bad in itself since they're at least playing a sport. It's just not baseball Wink).
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Martin isn't even 24 yet. Confused I didn't realize we were talking about preschoolers here.

He's coming into his sophimore year with the Dodgers, and really couldn't be any younger.

If any of your interest in baseball is going to rest on the existence of a Quebeccor in the MLB, you have one.

Or is he a little too ethnic to be a true Canadian?
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DaZombie2007
Undead!


Joined: 04 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am back from the Bengals game yesterday, Pakmer didn't have a good day, but we still won. Oh and the Colts got whupped! Man, the Jags just let the rushing yards fly.

Oh I want to know what you all consider some of the greatest seris, game , or sports moment.

Mine
I have two My number one the U.S. hockey team's victory over the Soviet Union at Lake Placid.

The Boston Red Sox 2004 was down 0-3, and came back with 4 straight wins.
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: somewhere in the Metro New York area... Currently: Contemplating stuff...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaVille2006 wrote:
The Boston Red Sox 2004 was down 0-3, and came back with 4 straight wins.


Man... that's the one series that there's just no retort for. Just gotta take the worst beating and breakdown of all-time with my chin as high as I can.

Which, of course, happens to be quite low at that moment.

Anyways, for me, the 1996 World Series. First time I could remember seeing the Yankees playing in the Fall Classic (they lost the Series in 1980, but I was born only a few months prior, so memory is a little hazy from then. You know, non-existantly hazy?). The Braves beat the daylights out of the Yankees 14-2 in the opener at Yankee Stadium, followed by a 4-2 defeat in Game 2.

The Yankees went on to win the next four games and clinched at home, winning their first World Series title since 1979, and 23rd overall. This of course touched off their mini-dynasty of 4 titles in 6 years, including 4 straight appearances, the first three being wins.

Ahh... Jimmy Leyritz and the 11-pitch at-bat. Mark Wohlers was never the same again. Wade Boggs on an NYPD horse in left field. The enduring image that MLB promotional ads show of Derek Jeter leaping into the air. Charlie Hayes smiling as if it's the only thing on earth catching that last out.

It's been 11 seasons since then... and I remember it like it was yesterday.
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R2 Lou2



Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Location: On board The Lemony Falcon!

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I support West Ham United ( English football/soccer team).
Twenty six years of pain,
1 minute away from winning the FA cup final last year ( late incredible equalizer, lost on penalties Crying or Very sad )

If you want to get my back up please play piped music at the beginning and end of matches at any sport ( and also everytime a goal, point is scored).
This makes me mad Evil or Very Mad I want to hear the crowds ROAR!

I'm sorry my Yankee friends but I have to blame you for bringing the evil of piped music at sporting events to the world Wink
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DaZombie2007
Undead!


Joined: 04 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louisville lost this year again vs. Kentucky, but in a few years we shall improve.

I just got finished wtching the Giants and Eagles game, and all I have to say is that Jeff Garcia has jumped from obscerity to power, he once held playing for the 49ers.

I however will be rooting Cincy tomorrow night in a must needed win vs the Colts.
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eli Manning makes me want to vomit.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish his brother had less success, oh well Cincy still has a shot to make the wild card.
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Dperic8



Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Location: Escondido, Califonia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cincy still has a shot to make the wild card


No they don't, My Broncs have fallen on hard times but i think the Rookie might be able to pull a great game out, so Who else has a team in the wil card fight?
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: somewhere in the Metro New York area... Currently: Contemplating stuff...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Giants are technically still in the playoff race.

They're like the little engine that could. Only they can't. Or won't. Or something utterly mediocre.

But the Yankees did sign Kei Igawa for five years at $20 million USD. Not bad for a lefty.

Yes, I'm steering clear of my depressing football and basketball teams.
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell you right now, not to be worried about the BoSox getting either JD Drew, or Disuke Matsuzake.

JD just sucks (coming from a Dodger fan), and "Dice K" is as unproven a talent as baseball has ever seen. His career Japanese record is "good", but not as god-like as you'd assume, based on the way those idiotic sports writers talk.
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: somewhere in the Metro New York area... Currently: Contemplating stuff...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

108-60 career W/L record.

2.48 career ERA.

Not overwhelming, but impressive enough considering Daisuke Matsuzaka has 168 decisions in over 180 starts (I don't know the exact number), and he's only 26.

I see this going two ways. He becomes the next in line in Boston's "ace parade" after Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez.

He is anywhere from "good" to "mediocre" to "bad", thus making him "the worst deal ever in Boston Red Sox history"... simply because Epstein will look desperate, and the press that Matsuzaka got was unprecedented, so anything less than a No. 1 pitcher will look like a bust. At least in the short term.

Remember that Dan Duquette once said that Roger Clemens is "entering the twilight of his career"... so then Clemens went out and won four more Cy Young awards, including three in a row after those comments were made (Toronto in 98 and 99, New York in 00).

Random things happen in baseball, and this is no exception. J.D. Drew on the other hand, well, he's about as much fun as a stack of used index cards for lunch. He'll play about 115 to 120 games, produce a bit, and basically be a pain in the patootie the rest of the time. Boston's a good fit for him.

Here's where things get touchy as a Yankee fan. Boston brings out a rotation of Curt Schilling, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, and Tim Wakefield (with Jon Lester coming back from chemotherapy) from 1 to 5. New York brings out Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Randy Johnson, and Kei Igawa (with the "Human Injury" Carl Pavano coming back from his sprained/bruised/cracked/chipped/sore/pulled/torn/broken/hyperextended/swollen __________ <- insert body part in blank space).

That's still relatively even. Some unknowns, some old guys, someone who kills the other team, some injury-prone, some old reliables. So where's the tipping point?

Damn Roger Clemens.

Everyone knows that Roger will sign again for the right money and circumstance. The big question is whether Boston or New York will fit that description.

Boston will let Clemens retire his number, and basically do what he wants in the city that started it all for him, offering him obscene money for coming full circle in his career and giving them half a season in return. He won't have to go on the road when he doesn't pitch (basically getting the same type of contract that Houston gave him last year). Definitely a storybook type of ending.

New York will spend even more obscene money for the same half season. Hell, Steinbrenner would pay Clemens by the pitch if he thought it would be beneficial. Difference is, would Clemens agree to being at every game, regardless of whether or not he's pitching? The Yankees, love them or hate them, are one of the few teams in pro sports left that has their own code of conduct for players requiring grooming standards, so Clemens taking road trips off is just out of the question. Then again, Pettitte is back in NY, and Clemens finally got his ring here. A different storybook ending. Though I don't think the reception would be as warm as it was in 2003.

This offseason is playing out quite interestingly. I love the Hot Stove League... and on a side note... Gil Meche, 5 years, $55 million?? Question ??

Read SI.com's Tom Verducci, Jon Heyman, or John Donovan for some good stuff on this season's wacky offseason.
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hossrex



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: 05 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logan Starfire wrote:
108-60 career W/L record.

2.48 career ERA.


The W/L record is right, but the ERA is closer to 2.95.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2696321
http://japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1104
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisuke_Matsuzaka

Its a great record. Sure. But before 2006, it was only 91-55. Also good... certainly. It'll get you a good job on most teams, but its not legendary.

He's gone:

16-5
14-7
15-15
6-2
16-7
10-6
14-13
17-5

Its good. Sure. But double digit loses twice, a season with less then ten decisions, a year with 15 losses, and another year where he barely won ten.

Those are certainly ace... number one starter... numbers, but they aren't really SUPERSTAR ace numbers.

Consider along with ALL of that, the talent level of hitting he's faced in his career... a league without Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols... and ironically, considering how long he's been in the MLB... he's even missed most of Ichiro's career.

Take those stats, and apply them to a player playing in triple A, and you get a closer approximation for what to expect from "DiceK", then you do if you assume he's going to do ANYthing like that in the MLB.

Quote:
Remember that Dan Duquette once said that Roger Clemens is "entering the twilight of his career"... so then Clemens went out and won four more Cy Young awards, including three in a row after those comments were made (Toronto in 98 and 99, New York in 00).


Smile I know. I LOVE that quote. Duquette is obviously brain dead.

Quote:
Random things happen in baseball, and this is no exception. J.D. Drew on the other hand, well, he's about as much fun as a stack of used index cards for lunch. He'll play about 115 to 120 games, produce a bit, and basically be a pain in the *bleep* the rest of the time. Boston's a good fit for him.


Yup.

He's garbage.

Enjoy, with but a mighty click, how mediocre his stats are, considering his fame, and salary.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/drewj.01.shtml

Thats the guy who sat a year, lost a season off his career, and refused to play for Phillies, all because he was supposed to be (and I quote...) "The Next Mickey Mantle".

Quote:
Here's where things get touchy as a Yankee fan. Boston brings out a rotation of Curt Schilling, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, and Tim Wakefield (with Jon Lester coming back from chemotherapy) from 1 to 5. New York brings out Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Randy Johnson, and Kei Igawa (with the "Human Injury" Carl Pavano coming back from his sprained/bruised/cracked/chipped/sore/pulled/torn/broken/hyperextended/swollen __________ <- insert body part in blank space).


Even to the point of absurdity. Each has a washed up future hall-of-fame, former Diamondback worldseries winner... and each has a Japanese question mark. If only the Yanks had a crappy knuckleball pitcher.

Quote:
That's still relatively even.


Yup. Smile

Quote:
So where's the tipping point?

Damn Roger Clemens.


Yup. Smile

Quote:
Everyone knows that Roger will sign again for the right money and circumstance. The big question is whether Boston or New York will fit that description.

Boston will let Clemens retire his number, and basically do what he wants in the city that started it all for him, offering him obscene money for coming full circle in his career and giving them half a season in return. He won't have to go on the road when he doesn't pitch (basically getting the same type of contract that Houston gave him last year). Definitely a storybook type of ending.

New York will spend even more obscene money for the same half season. Hell, Steinbrenner would pay Clemens by the pitch if he thought it would be beneficial. Difference is, would Clemens agree to being at every game, regardless of whether or not he's pitching? The Yankees, love them or hate them, are one of the few teams in pro sports left that has their own code of conduct for players requiring grooming standards, so Clemens taking road trips off is just out of the question. Then again, Pettitte is back in NY, and Clemens finally got his ring here. A different storybook ending. Though I don't think the reception would be as warm as it was in 2003.


heh... Yup. Smile

Clemens does know New York though. He wont sign there without knowing whats going on, or forcing an understanding with the team about whats to be expected of "The Rocket".

Quote:
This offseason is playing out quite interestingly. I love the Hot Stove League... and on a side note... Gil Meche, 5 years, $55 million?? Question ??


Confused I hadn't heard that yet.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mechegi01.shtml

55-44, 4.65 era is pretty bad... well... its at least not very good.

Quote:
Read SI.com's Tom Verducci, Jon Heyman, or John Donovan for some good stuff on this season's wacky offseason.


I'll check him out. Smile
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Logan Starfire



Joined: 07 May 2006
Location: somewhere in the Metro New York area... Currently: Contemplating stuff...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh. Off on the ERA. Oh well... still sub-3.00. Not bad, but not the level of talent in MLB, let alone the AL. I actually think for their first years, Igawa may end up as the better deal (long haul, who the heck knows). Igawa led the Japanese League in strikeouts 3 times, last year being the most recent with 194. That's low by American standards, but he doesn't throw all that hard, and the hitters aren't as strong. That being said, contact still isn't being made, so something's working. I think if his location and selection are strong, he'll be a bargain at an average of $4 million per year.

Matsuzaka, on the other hand, has a much higher burden on his shoulders. In what amounts to paying $103.11 million to sign the pitcher, he's being asked to carry the team (along with Curt Schilling, who seems to be overlooked in this) as an unproven talent. Well, even unproven is relative. He's unproven to Americans, but pitchers usually win the first round. It's when the pitchers win Round 2 also that you know you're getting somewhere. Hitters adjust. Look at some of the shots that Bonds, Giambi, Pujols, Derrek Lee, Ryan Howard, and others have smacked against top-shelf talent in the league. If any pitcher, not just D-Mat, is off his game... it's outta here, as the great Vin Scully would say.

And yeah... Gil Meche signs with the Royals for $55 million. What on earth is happening??
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